The Business of Running a Brothel

But even if a girl in my place is really busy, and she's knocking them dead and she'll be like, oh, and the girl's just sitting, she feels bad.

Don't feel bad because tomorrow is another day you might be sitting.

Just don't ever like smile, look in the face, you know, just do what you can to make your money.

And that's a beautiful thing.

It's your day, baby, right?

You're listening to Madam, a podcast about Julie Moya and New York City's most famous brothel.

Hello again, everyone.

And welcome to the second episode of Madam, the podcast where we talk to Julie Moya, who was the owner and operator of the legendary brothel, Julie's of NYC.

And she was also a former sex worker and a fascinating person who has a ton of amazing stories to tell.

I'm Ben Sky and I am joined as always by the incredible Em Vaughn.

First off, we want to thank all of you who listened to the first episode and reached out to give us your thoughts and feedback.

We received some really compelling and thoughtful responses to some of the things that we talked about and were very encouraged to have an audience of people who want to engage with this topic and are excited to be along on this ride with us.

It's a journey.

I will go ahead and say.

You know, Em, one of the things that I heard the most were from people who were really affected by your comments about the urgency of chronicling the stories of sex workers and people who are often forgotten.

I think that really struck a chord with our listeners.

But the feedback that we heard most was, I want to know more about Julie.

And that's why we're here.

And I'm very happy to say you will not be disappointed.

You know, with our first episode, we wanted to give you an overall idea of what the entire series was gonna be about.

But going forward, you're gonna hear a lot less from me.

And you'll hear a lot more from Em and Julie, who will have some longer form conversations where they'll be able to dive deep into some specific topics and eras of Julie's life.

So that hopefully you can really get to know her as the fascinating and complicated and amazing person that Em and I have both come to know her as.

So Em, what is today's episode gonna be about?

What did you two talk about?

Well, on this episode, we discussed the business of the capital B, talked to Julie about her own personal experience, how she got involved with the sex work industry and the pros and cons of the business as she sees it.

This was an early conversation with Julie.

We're still getting to know each other at this point.

We talk about philosophy around clients, and it's been an ongoing challenge of how to have productive discussions around the work.

When I'm a worker and Julie is a madam, which makes our dynamic a little different, but it's also very meaningful that even though we don't always see eye to eye, we still share a lot of common issues.

We still relate at the end of the day.

I know you had COVID recently.

How are you feeling?

I'm feeling better.

I'm feeling better.

I think the COVID is like a little rainstorm now compared to the way it was like a horrible.

And I noticed that I don't get sick.

Well, I'm glad you're better.

Me too.

Yeah.

So talking about business today, how did you get involved in the industry?

I used to dance for the Hustler Club.

This was like many years ago in Cincinnati.

And little by little, the dancing led to turning dates and making money.

Oh, yeah.

And then you moved to New York, like 18, right?

No, I moved to New York in my 20s.

And you were still dancing?

Well, when I came to New York, I wanted to dance.

But when I seen the way the clubs were, I was like, oh, no, it was like blatant sex out.

Oh, so it was like less restricted.

Yeah, it was like not even dancing.

It was just turning dates and stuff like right out in the open.

And I was like, hell, no.

And then I went to Roxy, it was on 42nd Street.

And I danced there.

And you know, you dance, then you go through the audience and ask if they won his private show.

And then you take them to a room, basically hustle and make money.

Oh, yeah.

And you liked working there?

Yeah, I liked it.

At first, it was horrible because competition.

They broke my condoms.

Oh, my God.

They threw my clothes out the window.

Your coworkers?

Yes.

It was horrible.

That's insane.

And then I just go home at night and cry, like, oh, my God, I can't take this.

But then I was like, I'm not going to let them break me down.

At first, it was horrible.

Yeah.

Do you think they were hazing in a way?

I don't think it was hazing.

I think it was hating.

Hating, straight up.

Crazy.

You know, a new person can't be like that.

Yeah, to stave off competition and stuff.

But you stuck it out.

I came here actually with a pimp to New York and had other, there were others with me.

He would send us out like in the streets at night to work.

Right on the corner like 57th, Sixth Avenue, you know, there's a lot of girls working out there.

They had for a co-athon and they were almost nothing out there.

And then you walk around to the hotels of the Lexington, the Waldorf.

Every place had a different way to go.

And you went to the Waldorf, you went to the bar and ordered a drink and then you tip the lady off and the guy would give you the key and you meet him upstairs.

How would you learn how the hotels wanted you to like enter?

Another worker told me if you go in there, you know, this is their thing.

And then there was a place called Alibaba's.

It was on 1st Avenue and 60th.

And Alibaba's was all mob guys.

I learned etiquette to be a mob guy.

For the first, I was a little like a little too loose as far as got really comfortable.

Then I learned how to deal with those guys.

Yeah, what is like mob guy etiquette?

How do you have to be with them?

You basically have to be very accompanying to them as far as the way you speak to them.

You gotta watch what you say to them.

I mean, you can play around once you get to know them, but you just have to give them total respect.

I see, I see.

And that was different from...

Yeah, very different.

It was fun in there.

What did you like about it?

Why was it fun?

Because you got to hang out with a bunch of gangsters.

Were you ever like sitting in on a conversation or something going on where you were like...

On quarters, all kinds of stuff.

They treated the girls really nice though as far as money and stuff like that.

So a lot of girls liked working there.

And we found...

I found an in-call spot.

It was called Bill's.

It was, oh my, a guy named Bill Hells Angel.

And we started working in there.

He didn't know it.

But the money was so great, he didn't even realize it.

So we just wanted to take a second to interject here because you're going to hear some terms that are going to get thrown around that are very familiar to people who are sex workers or who visit sex workers, but may not be too familiar to you if you're not intimately familiar with the industry.

So the first thing I want to ask you, Em, is Julie refers to working at an in-call place.

What is an in-call?

Let me Google that.

In-call is a noun.

It's a visit by a client.

There are two things.

There are in-calls and there are out-calls.

In-calls, the client is coming to see the provider.

Right, right.

Like you have a space.

Yeah, space, studio, hotel room.

They're coming to your residence.

Any of those things.

Out-call is when the provider goes to the client at their hotel room, at their residence.

You've worked in both, right?

What's the sort of like process like for working at a place that's not just your apartment?

How does it work?

How does it work?

Well, I get a call or a text or an e-mail from someone who's interested.

I verify them through a screening process.

And once that's done, I say, okay, come see me at my studio.

Yeah, it feels good because all the supplies and what I need are already there.

It's a space, it's a working space that is just for that.

It's not my residence.

It's not, it is for the purpose of seeing clients.

I feel safe there because there's usually other women there.

And it's an established place and around for a really long time.

So basically you were kind of working the street and then when you found the end call with the Hells Angels guys, you found that like preferable.

Yeah, it was fun.

It was like being out in the street, but it was inside.

You could hustle.

The house got like 40 bucks.

And then when you go to the private room, but it was dirty.

It wasn't real clean.

It was kind of shabby, but it was good money though.

And then I realized, you know what, this could be so much better.

If it was clean, the guys were treated nice, you know, nicely instead of being like, hurry up, you know, and come on.

And they were having like a nice experience.

So that kind of led you to be like, maybe I'll open up my own.

Well, I got married.

Then I moved to Argentina.

And I hated it.

Got back here, started, you know, selling drugs, got arrested.

And then I was on bail.

And then I went back into the business.

That's when I decided to rent my own apartment by myself.

Another girl, and before you know it, it just started to grow and grow the way we wanted.

Nice place, clean, nice ambiance, really friendly and secure also.

Private.

And it just went crazy.

What was that first place like?

Where was it?

It was right on 77.

It was a small one-bedroom site east side.

Build a wall, mirrors and stuff like that.

How many people at a time would like to be working?

Only maybe about four girls at a time.

And it was a small apartment.

But then we went to a commercial space.

How long from starting to getting to a big commercial space?

It was like, I'm talking like maybe five years.

Yeah, that's not a long time at all.

I mean, you like shot up.

Yeah, I was arrested in 2005 and I had like five apartments in the city.

Yeah.

And did you always have places in the city in Manhattan?

I've been on almost all the blocks in Manhattan.

It's crazy.

I'm serious.

You wouldn't believe it.

Was that not, I guess, common for places to be in Brooklyn or it was just a different type of thing?

Yeah, everyone said, don't go out of Manhattan.

We always stayed in Manhattan.

That's where money is.

But I mean, it's not now, but at the time.

Yeah.

And everybody got to know the place and we hit the internet first too.

That was, I think, oh boy, in the 90s, very beginning.

And I remember the internet, just a friend, one of the clients said, I'm going to put you guys on the internet.

And I'm like, really?

And then all of a sudden it was just like unbelievable.

Guys like started coming like nonstop.

It was really busy.

And you feel like that set you apart from other providers?

Yeah, it did.

It spread like right after that.

I'm sure that everybody started to get in on it, but it was just like Screw magazine and trying to think of the other ones, and Village Boys, you know, stuff like that.

We were advertising it all the time.

And then it just switched to the internet.

And those places just sort of crept up and really like started to explode.

You're listening to Madam, a podcast about Julie Moya and New York City's Most Famous Brothel.

For show notes, links and more about the show, visit us on the web at madampod.com.

That's madampod.com.

If you like what you hear and you want to support the show, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/madampod.

Our patrons will have access to bonus content and will get a shout out on a future episode.

And now, back to the show.

And you know what I notice is very different now to the girls before, the years back, it was like a competition between like, I'm good, you know, I'm fucking real good in service.

And another girl would be like, well, I'm better.

Now it's just the money.

It's almost like, oh, yeah, well, I have to do this to get this money.

And before it was almost like a really competitive sort of like service thing where the girls would really like give great service and they like to do great service.

But bareback fucking was definitely a bad problem back then.

I would fire a girl.

Really?

And then when I got out of prison in 2018, no, to 2020, I went on the, it was some advertisement place and I was like surprised, like bareback fucking, bareback fucking included and all of a sudden like, wow, New York is getting kind of crazy right now.

I think I've seen those at different parlors of like, and for low prices.

So I don't know if they're real, but yeah.

It might not even be real.

Maybe the girls were just waiting for the guy to get over there because a lot of guys are real edgy right now about getting bait and switch and stuff like that.

There's a new name they call it now.

What is it?

Yeah, catfishing.

Oh, clients seen fake pictures.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, we promise different services that they don't really offer.

When they get there, they want to charge money for kissing, money for this, money for that.

Me, yeah.

Yeah.

But I mean, to me, the whole package should be there.

It's like, I like the thing where there's no hoop jumping.

They know what they're going to get.

They come in, they get what they want, they have a nice time.

I mean, some guys are jerks though.

They'll come in nicely the first few times, and then the money's good, and then they'll start to discount what happened.

Come on, I'm a VIP, and I'm like, if you're a VIP, you wouldn't even talk about it this way.

Exactly.

Do you find that's the case with providers who maybe are more your peers?

Nowadays, you find that's like, hey, either Payne's Switching, or that GFE is gross, or charging, or like, uncharging.

That's definitely in the way that I've experienced studios.

It's definitely me and my peers, we're not putting it all at the front.

We're like, this is the base, and anything extra, we'll negotiate in person.

Because we're not going to negotiate that over the phone.

It's dangerous.

But your business model is like, here's everything up front.

We're not trying to scam or anything like that.

Here it is.

That's very transparent, and I feel like that's not common, maybe, in my experience with other workers.

Like I used to have a girl that was so popular, guys would all line up.

I wish I could just go in that room with her for a minute to see exactly, and the other girls, to see what the hell is really going on.

What is this magic?

Yeah, because she's really like, you know, you see different girls that really do have that, and they're smart because they're going to make their money with that.

And why would you want to sit for hours in a place and just sit there watching the clock instead of having those clients boom boom, like not boom boom, I'm talking about the money boom boom.

Right, right, right.

And that's another problem too, that you have so many like independents now that are not GFE, they say they're GFE, they're not, and it's really like, you know, or they're overcharged, crazy prices.

So another thing, another like area that I think we need to define is some acronyms that get thrown around, and they're sort of like sex worker jargon, and I'm going to post something with this episode that's like something that Swap put out that sort of defines all of these like little acronyms that people use.

Swap another acronym.

Exactly so, exactly so, yeah, yeah.

But like, do you mind if I just like go through some of the acronyms that Julie uses, and maybe you can tell me what they are and what they mean.

And let's start with the simple ones, because the first one that you mentioned is actually the most complicated one, I think, right?

But let's just start with BBBJ.

What's that?

Bareback blowjob.

It means no condom.

And then I think she says right after that, TCIM.

Oh, too coming in the mouth.

BBBJ to TCIM, bareback blowjob, too coming in the mouth.

I don't know, D-A-T-Y?

D-A-T-Y is so funny.

It's dining up the Y.

Would love to know the context behind that.

I know the Y was once a place where gay men...

Absolutely.

Famously immortalized in the village people.

Exactly.

Not sure what it has to do with pussy, but...

So I've had two theories about this.

The first is, I don't know, maybe some motherfuckers thinks it looks like a Y, right?

Maybe they'll all slit in them.

But my other one that I feel is giving clients a lot of credit is in Kamasutra, the vagina is referred to as the yoni.

And I thought maybe they're all well-read on Eastern sexual philosophy, and therefore refer to it as dining at the yoni.

I see.

This is very interesting.

But I have no idea why it's called that.

I have no idea why.

If you're out there and listening, please tell us.

Please tell us.

Yeah, why is it called the Y?

And then, what is it, DFK?

It is deep French kissing.

I guess that brings us more to the last acronym that I wanted you to talk about, which is the most complicated, which is GFE.

But what does it actually stand for?

GFE stands for Girlfriend Experience.

What does it mean?

I guess, let me rephrase that question.

Why is it a complicated term to define?

Well, I mean, like I discussed later in the podcast, you know, this isn't legalized work, and it can be very dangerous, especially when you're not in the NYC area to even talk to other constituent sex workers about the work that you do.

What GFE means for clients and providers can be so vastly different from each other.

Have you ever had a client who has come to you with the expectation of a girlfriend experience and felt like he didn't get one?

Because if some, I don't know, you'd share different definitions of what that meant.

Yes, this happened recently.

I would say from the beginning, I have been sought out for GFE and I've branded myself that way.

Recently, since I mostly do massage now, I was called for an out call at this gentleman's apartment and he wanted a GFE massage.

So that's not something you typically say, massage, you don't say GFE, oh, I want a GFE massage.

I don't know, that's just like not something.

And I go over and he starts to, wants to go down and I don't want him to go down on me.

I was like, I don't do that.

And he said, oh, well, GFE means that and it also means you have sex with me.

And I said, no, we're not having sex.

And he said, well, that's what I meant, a GFE massage is that we would have sex too.

And I said, no, that's not what that means.

A girlfriend experience massage, I read it to mean, I'm not just giving you a massage, you know, there's an intimate experience that's happening, body to body slide, things like that.

But massage means massage.

And he was like, well, in Japan, I was like, interesting, cool, well, we're not there.

Oh, PS like a girlfriend experience massage, like a massage master girlfriend, so to me, that means reluctantly massaging my shoulders while watching TV.

That's a girlfriend massage, right?

And that's another problem, too, that you have so many, like, independents now that are not GFE.

They say they're GFE, they're not.

And it's really like, you know, or they're overcharged, crazy prices.

And they're not really GFE, like a lot of girls that come to us, when they realize what our GFE is, they're like, oh, no, I will not do that because we're like, well, that's what we are, a real girlfriend experience.

What is GFE for y'all?

GFE for us is, you know, passion, BBBJ, TC, CIM, yeah, and, you know, kissing.

But some girls do not like French kiss for some reason, I don't know.

Well, I understand sometimes with all the things that are going on right now, the viruses and all this weird stuff.

They do like that and the girls seem to be OK with it, most girls.

What do you think about that?

Yeah, no, I definitely see how it changes.

Like for me, I've always been like very pro GFE for myself.

Yeah, I find it really like frustrating too because, you know, they're like, oh my God, I will not kiss or I will not do a blowjob without a condom.

And it's crazy, but I don't know.

Yeah, because definitely at my place, we don't charge the same amount for everything.

Oh, no, no, no.

So I'll see a lot of people and a lot of girls will zero, will be there for eight hours and not see anyone and I'm not charging as much as they are.

But I have regulars and I want them to keep coming back.

And if they're just coming, I want to see a lot of people.

I want to have that.

I want to be on my ass the whole night.

Like that makes me feel good.

Of course, of course, because you're making your money.

Oh yeah.

We had a girl that she works with me a long time ago and she went on her independent.

She was charging like extreme amounts, you know, different prices.

And then she came back to me after many years, but she was not with the price.

So I told her, you know, she wants to charge more and see what you can do.

And she literally would sit and not make a dollar for days and days.

She'd get lucky one day, but basically they just thought they just don't want it.

They just would not.

Yeah.

And that works for some girls.

It's like, okay, you want to see less people.

But like for me, I want to be fucking working.

And like, yeah, because time is of the essence.

Time is of the essence.

I feel like in the long term, it's a better investment because then you have more regulars coming to see you.

You know, people over time, that's what you want.

Because if I sit there and I zero and I see the other girls got three guys coming in, you know, that makes me feel bad.

What the hell with that?

It's competition.

But even if a girl in my place is really busy and she's knocking them dead and she'll be like, oh, and the girl's just sitting, she feels bad.

Don't feel bad because tomorrow is another day you might be sitting.

Just don't ever like smile luck in the face, you know, just take your, you know, do what you can and make your money.

And that's a beautiful thing.

It's your day, baby, right?

What do you, what do you like about what you do and having your own place?

Lately, I just feel like I would do things a little bit different.

I like the business.

I do.

Now that the cops are not being so aggressive and because that was really horrible before.

It's like success in anything is great to have.

But if it's continually being knocked down by a police and the city and all this moral bullshit, it's so aggravating.

It's just now we have to get everything together and get the right kind of flow going.

I think that the girls that are providing this service have become a little and they're obviously trying to charge more and stuff like that.

Maybe it's been more people out to do it in this way.

I'm not really sure, but I just see that something is definitely not right.

I mean, I don't have any sense of what was in the past, what was in the present.

But I know my experience, the first time I was considering doing this, I knew another person that was doing this.

And I paid this person like $50 to just kind of like, how's your experience been?

And this person didn't like doing the work.

Basically laid it out of like, you have to hustle everything out of them and try to do as little as possible.

And that was this person's business model.

And I feel like that's kind of the attitude of providers today, is try to get as much as, it's kind of like a flex.

I did very little to get this X amount of money, you know, which I think is cool in a lot of ways.

And it's like a reclamation of power.

But also as someone who wants to please people and wants to make them feel good, you know, like struggle with that.

I don't know.

I want people to go out feeling better and being in the world better.

Well, you are very like unique.

Because you're not like a lot of these girls are.

And it's nice and refreshing to see, honestly.

I wish that everybody could, you know, we need training.

I'm not doing it.

We need to explain, listen, this is what this is and this is why it is.

Because it is a confusion.

It's like everything right now is in a disarray.

It's like this girl, this and that.

It's just so many different things going on.

Yeah.

Well, it's not something that's legalized.

So it's not something that's regulated.

Try to teach each other.

And of course, that's great and naive.

But then things can get kind of lost in translation.

And then there's the drug part of it too.

That, you know, it's like even in clubs or wherever you go, there's going to be just going to be other extra things.

There's going to be drugs.

There's going to be.

And then, you know, you wonder what you should do about that.

You know what I mean?

You have to allow a certain amount of things.

And then you have clients that come in and they get high whenever too.

And then you get these girls that they have to drink to do this.

And it's like, why would they have to drink to do this?

I could see something, you know, like making you a little less nervous or something.

But then you'll see, and I've noticed this a lot lately too, a lot of these women are real alcoholics.

No, I mean, seriously, because it does get out of hand.

It can get really out of hand.

So everything sort of has to be thought about and different girls, different things.

So it is, you know, something that has to be like, I guess in moderation.

Yeah, and like knowing your boundaries.

Or when you do the work and figure out your boundaries at the same time.

I mean, you can't go in, but definitely.

Yeah, yeah, but you have a great mind of this business.

I'm serious.

I mean, I think it's like naivety, because these people, they've been in the business like five to ten years, and they're like, girl, I've seen everything, you know, like men are shit.

They don't oppress me.

I don't fuck for free.

But my training comes from my upbringing.

Like, I'm just like from the south and like, that's how we're taught to be.

It's just like pleasers.

Yeah, but pleasers.

And at the same time, you get your money and yeah, and it's a fair thing.

And you do want to know that the guy is walking out like a real asshole, or like he's just been robbed, or even just disrespected.

Because I don't like to see either way, the girl feeling like that or the guy.

Yeah, I just feel like if a dude feels disrespected, he's going to go take it out on his family, his wife and his workplace.

I just cross my fingers that if I make him feel good, he goes home and treats everybody better.

You know, grain of salt.

I'm not being naïve about that.

We have to give and receive.

You're listening to Madam, a podcast about Julie Moya and New York City's Most Famous Brothel.

For show notes, links, and more about the show, visit us on the web at madampod.com.

That's madampod.com.

If you like what you hear and you want to support the show, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/madampod.

Our patrons will have access to bonus content and will get a shout out on a future episode.

And now, back to the show.

They have to be mentally sound to be in this business, I think.

Because if they're not, they just cannot handle it.

And it's hard because we all grew up with our own childhood trauma and where we've come from, it's getting to business and we're exposed to more.

And just like as humans, we go to the world, we collect trauma and that sort of thing.

So it's definitely understandable.

And it's hard.

We'll talk about this at some time, but it's hard to get out of the business.

So it's kind of like trying to balance of like...

Right, the money's there, it's there.

You know, do the business and be mentally sound, but also people feel kind of they don't have an option sometimes.

So it's like it's hard.

That's where the problem starts.

They feel they don't have an option.

They become frustrated with themselves.

Yeah, so it is good when they can come in and just do what they have to do.

I mean, some women like what they do, you know?

And it's fun to them.

Those are the type of women I think should be in the business.

What are some of the services?

Yeah, GFE, basically.

I mean, I find it weird.

Before, we used to have like different fetishes or whatever.

A lot of the girls don't seem to want the fetishes.

For some unknown reason.

I don't know why.

Why do you think that is?

You know, like fantasies and stuff like that.

Golden showers, certain things girls do and don't, the rimming thing becomes an issue.

A girl, she's got her own ad, right?

I'm looking at ads.

I do not GFK or DATY.

So, you know, I'm like, what?

But she says you GFE.

And I'm thinking, how?

You know, I just talked to her the other day and I'm crying.

She's not coming for this woman all of a sudden.

You know, so why would she change her mind?

Something like that.

So weird, right?

I don't know.

Maybe something happened.

Maybe she got too much orgasm at work, no, she had too many orgasms.

If I had GHGY, I know I'm just kidding.

No, I don't know why, but I just, it surprised me.

No, I come at work sometimes.

It's like, where else in the, where else in your workplace can you?

The first time I had an orgasm was with a client.

Really?

I swear.

The client thought I was like making it up.

And he told the madam, oh, why she said she had an orgasm with me.

Oh, my first orgasm, oh my God.

And it really was.

I didn't even realize it.

And I was like, and I didn't even realize it.

So, yeah, I'm sure that a lot of girls have, you know, orgasms and maybe they don't want to and they can't help it.

My friend and I talk about follow up.

Do you try to stalk her as well?

Yeah, definitely.

This is actually funny.

My friend and I, we've seen the same guy separately and together.

And he's both made us come like when we were not expecting it.

And I didn't say anything.

And I go up to her after she's had a session with him.

And she was like, yeah, he made me come.

I hated it.

It doesn't happen frequently.

But what are other things that make a good session other than the girl being open?

What makes her a good client, I guess?

I mean, what do you mean for the client?

The girls are just the whole session in general.

Yeah, the session in general.

I think say a guy takes an hour and the girl comes out in 10 minutes.

You know that something is not right.

Or she'll say, Oh, he loved me so much.

He came back and he was so happy.

And I'm like, No, he wasn't.

I'm thinking, why would he come and have an hour and then he's out?

You know, just taking time, feeling the guy out, good chemistry, feeling out what he really likes and what he really wants, delivering that as much as you possibly can.

I don't like to hear a girl say, it was a bad session because we just didn't have the chemistry.

What?

You make the chemistry, Brady.

Are you crazy?

You know, they don't get that sometimes.

When they go in, you know, just give the time and give the ambiance of pleasure, attentive, you know, see what's on his mind at the time.

If you want to do, just kind of feel out what he wants and give it to him.

Like on the other end, what for a client you think makes for a good session?

You mean in the client's mind?

What can he do to?

Oh, what can he do?

He can be generous, number one, that's for sure.

Anyway, I see the girl like blossom.

But if you get a person comes in and he's like, oh, I wanted $20 off today, you know, something like that, entangling or something, then if a guy just puts out some money and puts out a tip right there, that you can see a very big difference with the girl too.

They'll be happy.

And if the client's, you know, clean, that's another really big issue.

And a lot of the guys aren't, that becomes a big problem.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, if he's not fresh, because they want the girl to be fresh.

And if he's, like I said, nice, manners, you know, respectful, at the same time, he wants what he wants in a nice way.

Absolutely.

What do you think about that?

For clients?

Yeah, I mean, a tip off the top.

Yeah, that's great.

Or just, yeah, not making it an issue of like, you know, have you started the session already?

Is our hour going already?

Have you seen anyone?

What the fuck?

Why are you here?

Like, what do you think we're doing?

Idiots, just like, be nice and open and I don't know.

Yeah, respectful.

I don't know.

I feel like it doesn't take much.

Like, coming in, like even if they've had a stressful day, it's like, okay, let's work together to make sure that you can relieve some stress.

Let's work together on it.

It's not just me, but it's also you, you know, settling down, settling in, I guess, trusting in a way.

Even though like, maybe I've never met the client before, but like, you know, I guess taking a chance and like trusting that, okay, this is going to be a good time.

This woman is not going to scam me, like not coming in, like very paranoid.

Yeah, because you'll see some guys coming in paranoid.

And then they're like, wow, you know, I like this.

Good, you know, nice.

I mean, we're human and everybody has different things.

Yeah.

But, you know, you'll notice certain things with certain people.

Why do, you know, why do clients see workers?

I mean, lots of reasons, but why do you think?

I think they see workers because they maybe, they just want, somebody might want something different, right?

They want to experiment, maybe, or just they're tired of the everyday thing and they have something that they want and they want to do.

I mean, I don't even think it has to do with marriage in a way, because they just want to see a person for service.

What do you think about that?

I think a lot of them don't know what the true reason they're, they think, I'm horny, I want to fuck.

And like, that's probably true.

But they just want someone to like touch their face and like feel cared for.

I guess it's like kind of, they just want that.

It's not the fucking they actually want.

It's just, I guess, being seen by another person.

Probably, I would say 95% of the clients I see are married.

And something that, well, I've learned this the hard way, is that they're going to see hookers, they're going to see a worker, so that there's that boundary of payment.

They're cheating, but it's in a way that, but not.

And there's not this kind of more complicated feeling.

They're just buying a service or paying for a service, right?

Yes, I wasn't married.

I prefer that.

Other than my husband gets involved in some relationship that's going to be emotional and all that.

Just pay them extra.

I mean, when I was married, I would hire a girl to be with my husband, but no one that I knew, because I wouldn't want him to get involved in a relationship.

Sometimes, a guy will bring your wife in.

Okay, so I guess my last question is...

So, well, first of all, we've been calling them apartments.

What do you like to call these places, like brothels, studios?

What do you like?

Brothels reminds me of something that the damn cops say all the time.

This is brothel, brothel, brothel.

I don't know.

In male studios, I hear a lot, apartments.

I'm not sure.

Pleasure dance?

Studios.

I said studios or parlors.

I always wanted a place where, and I almost had it, where the guys would actually mingle a little bit and then see a girl or something like that, you know, where everybody was kind of hanging around a bit.

But then I did have an apartment like that, but then I realized a lot of the guys were very private and they don't want to see the guys.

So that kind of went out the window.

But it was popular at the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.

You know, we had like a bar and drinks and you could walk up and hang out and stuff.

And there was other places in the city that was like that too.

Jillian Bradley, she was a madam that was here for many, many years.

Really well known.

When she walked into my apartment, when I was starting to become popular, she was like, oh, you have to just get a lot of material and a staple gun because it's too farce in here.

She's like, you need to decorate.

Yeah, you need to make it like really like a brothel.

And I was like, yeah, it's kind of fun.

It is fun to have different, like you walk into an angel room where there's everything is just different things, you know what I mean?

Different things.

Yeah, we haven't done that for a while.

It'd be fun to do.

Yeah.

What would you say to somebody who's thinking about getting into this business?

I think if they're getting into this business, they should really understand the whole, that what they're doing is going to be, it's going to be a little hard maybe to them.

Really think about it.

But if they do get into the business, give the best business they can, make the most money they can, and make it fun and prosperous, and you know, bank this little bit of life.

And you can.

It's there.

Yeah, they just do it.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think it's kind of part of the trend is like, there's a lot of like, magazine articles or tech docs or whatever, like, ladies, I earn $5,000 a week just by texting some guy in Florida.

And I don't do anything in it.

It's not sex work and my boyfriend knows.

And like, I think there's a lot of that.

And so people are like, oh, yeah, let me hop in on this, like, free money type of thing.

Or people or girls will be like, when I do what you're doing, I want easy money.

I'm like, it's not easy.

It can be a lot in a given time, like more than what most people make, but it's not easy money, you know?

Exactly.

And you have to handle it mentally.

I mean, if you can't handle it, it can become a big problem.

And you see all those scenarios.

But if you're, you know, well-rounded and you need a role, come over.

And I'll hook you up.

And she'll hook you up.

I like to call her fuck-alysis.

Madam is produced by Ben Sky.

Your host has been Em Vaughn.

You can subscribe to Em's newsletter where she writes about her experiences as a sex worker at emvaughn.me.

That's E-M-V-A-U-G-H-N dot M-E.

And of course, the star of our show is the Madam herself, Julie Moya.

Thanks for listening.

We'll see you next time.